Hank:

There's so many things I don't like about their like Twitter profile and stuff But like they got the important thing, right? The product is good. They broke a pattern.

They got engagement. Nice. Good job Talis, Talis, Talis, whatever you are.

Yeah, I don't know the name, but I agree Today on Code to Market, we've got a crappy launch that did well and we've got a whole bunch of reactions to Downtime and how different companies approach it and then we also have you know, a nice guy and a mean guy fighting on Twitter But yeah, I can't tell you've got the first one.

Gonto:

Yeah, let's start with the launch like I actually tweet about it I was blown away like there's a company that actually even the name of the company sucks because it's Talis but with double a I don't even know how to pronounce it It's like Talis or I don't know but they basically spent 30 million in Developing something that allows you to put an LLM weight in a physical Hardware and what that means is that this physical hardware is so much faster Replying and responding to chats or whatever you send. So they actually had a demo that's called chat Jimmy that if you tried it's just mind-blowing like you send a message and it responds almost immediately Whereas most of the other touchy PT cloth take forever having said that as we're talking like if you're in YouTube or in Spotify With video you can see this tweet and it's just 24 dedicated people 30 million spend This is what we ship and if you look at it, like there's no image on the post.

There's no Twitter open graph There's nothing there's a link that says details that you can't see anything else There's a thing that says demo chat bot and that's it But that was the entire tweet and I felt it was a really really bad notch, but they still what they see were so popular What's your take Hank?

Hank:

I mean, yeah their launch. It's one of those things where it's like, yeah, they did multiple things I would have advised against but I guess what do I know because they got more impressions and more Engagement on this then I think anything I've you know Like had my hands on directly and they've got like no following so, you know It's hard to know what's going on here Like there's something about people just have to engage with it because it does check a lot of boxes in the bundling We've talked about bundling before and they've got the whole like, okay this is kind of a it's not quite funding but they've got the like funding style like 30 million and people and like a launch thing bundled with it And then what's weird is they have three links Which you're not supposed to put three links on a tweet because it does what this did like it's got a broken preview image And the main link that Twitter's pushing you toward is the record the API request form which looks weird And then the chat Jimmy thing, I don't know So I guess before we get into that like that's all weird But then people just wanted to engage with it. You wanted to retweet it. I commented on your tweet after trying it they've got some like heavy hitters in the replies almost 500 replies almost 4 million views almost 6k likes pretty crazy I

Gonto:

100% agree and to me it's like they had so many opportunities like the chat bot was so fast they could just have done it like a gift where you show the message and the reply or They could have shown a picture Like the blog post had a really good benchmark on how much faster it was and how much better it was like they could just Put that picture instead of something else.

Hank:

So I think the opportunity was so big I mean the traditional thing is you at least put in like what's interesting or Valuable about this. I guess they put extreme specialization speed and power efficiency But it's really easy to like banner blindness style skip over that line because the formatting of the tweet is even weird Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's the key here It's a pattern breaker and you kind of catches your eye like what's this hot mess?

Gonto:

I remember why I saw it I saw it because I saw somebody quote with it saying like check the demo. It's incredible or something like that So when I clicked on the link and then at first I didn't understand what the demo was But once I saw the demo it was like holy shit But I think in these what it also shows you is like one breaking the pattern sometimes help even when it's it looks weird Or it looks scary I think the product was so good that people were quote tweeting trying to explain why you should check it out because in other cases People just RT but in this case, I didn't see anybody RT Everybody was quote tweeting if you look at the stats on if you should look at them Oh, you should do this. You should do that. And I think that that also creates more engagement So even though I don't think it was their their objective They drove so much engagements through that and if the product or what you're launching is incredible or unique You'll still get the views even if you need a shitty launch.

That's my other takeaway.

Hank:

Yeah, it's so interesting I mean their profile there's so many things I don't like about About they're like Twitter profile and stuff. But like they got the important thing, right? The product is good.

They broke a pattern They got engagement the thing does, you know, the label on the tin is what's inside the tin. Nice. Good job Talis to Alice Taylor's What are you are?

Gonto:

Yeah, I don't know the name, but I agree. Let's talk a bit about half cold I really saw their mesh new tweet, but I didn't see the one that he deleted So what did the deleted one say like what was it?

Hank:

Yeah, so our mesh he's the co-founder and CTO I think of HubSpot and he's very AI forward. I think actually he famously got equity In open AI because he owned chat.com or something and he he didn't sell the domain but he traded for equity or something Anyways, he put up like an image that said like open code or no It was it's a fork of open code. And do you know what open code is?

Gonto:

I do. Yes Yeah for our audience open code is an opinionated Version of code that is multi-model so you can hook up any model and they have their own opinions Open source and speed by ducks.

Hank:

Yes So Dharmesh launched hub code and it's basically a fork of open code is my understanding He did give attribution But it was very it was a very long tweet and it was like buried in there Like you could basically miss it or it might have even been threaded I don't know or it might have just been on this. I don't know if he even had a site He deleted the tweet because Dax and the team, you know started railing on him on like oh like, you know Nice product where'd you get it? And you know, they're kind of a kind of resin about it, which I'll circle back on So Dharmesh, he's a nice guy.

Like he deleted that tweet and if this wasn't even a launch this was like hey I'm working on this and so he deleted that tweet and had this like big explainer Gave credit like and basically like owned up to a few things that he feels he did wrong with his tweet So a couple things to digest here The first thing my first thought when I saw the original tweet and I saw Dax and his crew Yeah, I had to take it into Dharmesh is I was like, okay, they clearly don't know Dharmesh or his brand He's like a nice guy. He would never like harm intentionally like what was the problem?

Gonto:

He didn't talk about open code. He didn't say that he was like a

Hank:

Basically, yeah I think they were upset because he wasn't making it clear that it was a fork like That wasn't like the first thing he said it was buried and then also like the design because it's kind of got the like ASCII art Style in the same way that like, you know Claude it spells out Claude with the big blocks in ASCII you know open code does that and He just changed the open to hub. So the design looks similar to but it's okay. It's a two It's a two UI like there's not too much room for design You know, maybe I'll get flack for that But yeah And it's like early and you could argue that all these all these like 2e interfaces look the same.

Anyways, man They're designs. Anyways, my thought was and if these guys understood who Dharmesh was They'd be looking to like partner and help like this is HubSpot big public company and this is billionaire Dharmesh like this is a guy who could Superpower open code where they could say like hey, like what are your needs whatever? So that was my first thought when I saw it is if you're an open source maintainer Someone's forking you which also if you're open sourcing something Yeah, people are well within their right to do that and they can tweet and whatever but if they say that's the idea That's the idea Otherwise don't open source it But if someone does it there's a need of there's not being met Which you might be able to meet and form a bigger partnership or customer base or serve a market you didn't understand So that was that was like a miss I thought on their part Which that door is still probably open and then Dharmesh did a mea culpa and well, sorry Go on.

Go on

Gonto:

No what I was gonna say before the mea culpa is like I think they like open code blew up because Multiplity people that are very well known on Twitter talked about open code like DHH It has been using open code He added to over a key and he's been saying it's the best way to use all of the models for coding He carpathy talked about open code and there were like a lot of very known people talking about open code Which is what made them popular, but it made them popular because they were using basically their product But either the open source or the paid version in this case They just made a fork and it could have been great publicity as you said if you they engaged with Dharmesh But instead of doing that they just fucked up the relationship and I think Dharmesh is pretty well known on the engineering world I think it's better known in LinkedIn than in Twitter because he's more enterprising So I think it was a fantastic opportunity for open code to actually get access to more enterprise Developers like DHH carpathy have more hipster developers more of these startup developers Always on the edge and Dharmesh could have been a LinkedIn developer influencer that talks about them and thanks them So they could have done they could have win such a big audience By just helping out and I think they were just pissed off because it's like we built open source But we don't want anybody to fork it where it's just open source because we want to say that it's open source.

Hank:

That's it Yeah now in his make hopa. I agree with everything said there in his make hopa Dharmesh said, okay Well per my LinkedIn discussion exactly, which is apparently where the productive discussion happened He's like, I'm not sure I should go the two-way route And if I do go the two-way route and I also use open code So now he's saying I might not even use this after all and I'll give proper attribution, you know Sorry, my bad, which to me is signaling like hey, you guys kind of chased me away Like I got a bunch of love over here from like and potential customers and partnership but then here you guys basically chased me out of this like I'm not interested and that feels like the biggest miss for open code here is

Gonto:

Yeah, I agree 100% like that's mind blown that they fucked it up and weird opens I don't know if they were if it was like I think it was honestly they didn't think about it They just reacted on if they forked open call and they didn't talk about it and they were pissed off and they just reacted instead

Hank:

of thinking a bit more about it and doesn't this happen all the time with like the founders we work with like Yeah, they react instead of trying to think of what's the opportunity and what's interesting is especially like most people have good intentions And most people are doing the best they can given their point of view.

So Dharmesh's point of view, whatever Hey an open source thing. I'm gonna play with it I'll just do a couple tweaks in a social post if you take that assumption and your reaction Like this is the lesson for for the audience like okay, if somebody does something with your tech They don't attribute you whatever and you're feeling like your toes are getting stepped on that person probably didn't mean to step on your toes And therefore like you have an advantage because you can approach them and say like hey You probably didn't mean to step on my toes but maybe instead of Forking our tech you'd love us to work with you and deliver exactly what you need and use our resources for your advantage and that would Change the game probably for Dharmesh because he's I don't know yeah, it's just so common with the people we work with to be reactive and defensive and Almost I don't know gatekeeper is maybe the wrong word here But you know what? I mean? So next time you're on Twitter and you see something that pisses you off just think just think of a couple extra beats on what's?

Gonto:

the opportunity here and I think Asking a founder to wait until the next day is too much because maybe it has already happened and it's like I tried that in The past but in Twitter things move so fast So to me, it's like don't wait until the other day because that's too much of us But just go and walk for blocks like that's it.

Hank:

I don't I don't think it's even that I think it's no You should reply but you have to change your frame Rouch G's actually gotten fairly good at this like he looks for opportunities or feedback more Reflectively now because you know, you know The instinct on a lot of these tweets that come at Rouch G are like they actually are coming sometimes from a place of you Know hate and his reaction to them has has been pretty good, you know Unless cloudflare is involved then all bets are off and he gets mad which is a good segue to our next topic Cloudflare took a ton of people out it took out Larry about cloud it took out clerk took out clerk in this case

Gonto:

It was this time. It wasn't Cloudflare it was in the past though.

Hank:

It wasn't cloudflare this time Well, then great timing because everybody from my perspective everybody just thinks it was cloudflare And so they're not getting the blame that maybe they should maybe we should shut up

Gonto:

But no and I think it's not that but it's like I think in this new period of down times It's extremely important to be transparent But take ownership like as I said, like at least for Clark it has happened this last year I think clerk went down multiple times out of all of the times that went down one which is this recent one was their fault But all of the previous one it was either something that Google Cloud did or something that cloudflare did or something like that But I think what clerk did right is even though they did go down and even though it was because of an upstream vendor They still took the ownership and that's what they have to do because even if it's cloudflare that went down and that fucked it up As a company you could have multi cloud you could have like different clouds.

You could have different regions You could have a lot of things that could help you But I think in this new world of downtime that is coming from so many different things and so many services that we use They're interconnected where if one service goes down the other one goes down and stuff like that I think taking ownership on it we fucked up We could have done differently being transparent and open into what?

Happened and why with step by step on it at what time did where we notified I went down What did we do in the meantime? What are the things that we learn and then the third one is what are the things that we're gonna do to fix? These for next time and I think then if something does happen again where you fuck up But you should be able to at least say like look this time what we think last time works but if something else because Showing what you will do in the future to fix this gives you like give Accountability on the sense that if it goes down again for the same thing people should switch services Like how come you go down for the same thing twice? Like if you go down for different reasons and you explained it and you're working on it and that's your priority Maybe it's okay like it still sucks But I think it's it's a better optic that I think it makes more sense in that in that way I think that's true.

Hank:

Yeah, and yeah, like when it's a provider's fault like it sucks It's still good to do something nice at Laravel, you know, the team decided to give everybody like a 10% credit Which is you know, which is nice, you know, you don't have to give people credit when well, you don't have to give people credit ever Necessarily unless it's in your contract for uptime, but especially when it's an upstream provider But yeah, I like, you know now the team's definitely got to talk about. All right, we need a backup network and Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of weird those are bad days, but these have always happened what's interesting is they just they just get more and more impactful, but I still remember in like 2017 like an internet backbone thing took out like half the internet in the US for like six hours or something.

Gonto:

I remember that But in some of those cases still some compact I remember like I remember MercadoLibre was a company here and they went down and they blamed it on Amazon because a whole region Which was AWS East went down, but you should use multi-region and if you didn't do multi-region then it's your fault It's not Amazon.

Hank:

So I think I know you always take ownership like it's always always your fault because there's always a better way Yeah, it's true If you're not multi-region you need to go multi-region or or multi cloud or multi cloud You got to go multi cloud You got to have exactly because even though these things have always happened like people's businesses are more and more online Every year exactly. So I know yeah so there are some good examples of like what to do how to apologize to customers and I feel like a lot of the Time people are pretty understanding. But yeah interesting.

Gonto:

Okay.

Hank:

Yeah, don't have much else to say on that Yeah, we got anything else are we done here?

Gonto:

I think we're done happy to be back recording and doing episodes You hear from us pretty soon.

Hank:

You say that every week. I feel like whenever you say guys, we're back We're doing it weekly now guaranteed. That's when we're gonna miss the next week.

So We'll see how about how about you guys subscribe and like give us a like or a comment or something and then we'll see if We do another episode, you know Give us a little engagement, you know, make it make the juice worth the squeeze where I like it We need to get more subscribers. So subscribe. Thank you and peace send this episode to someone who reacts poorly to others on Twitter That's it That's a little CPA.

There you go. All right. Thanks everybody